Curse

Nechrond · Feb 15, 2010, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Dervs are fine. Mysticism is good. The only change I'd like to see for Dervs is that Mystic Twister be moved to Mysticism.
Also: enchantment stripping does not worry my Derv much. Thanks to Mysticism + all the low cooldowns, casting strips actually costs my opponent more than me. Well of the Profane can be a problem sometimes, but your suggestion wouldn't do much about that.

Voice of Reason · Feb 15, 2010, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Ok. I'm sure there aren't a lot of mechanics in GW that are dependent upon chance.

Damage ranges on weapons
Block chances
Sundering, extra adrenaline, halved skill recharge, +1 attribute, and half cast time mods
Failure chance on certain skills if requirement isn't met
Miss chance from blindness and hexes

Just because there's randomness in the game already doesn't mean we should add more.

Also, please note that I said "whether I win or lose shouldn't be left to chance." Hitting through a few blocks, getting an extra 1-2 strikes of adrenaline, or hitting for slightly more on your weapon most likely won't be a deciding factor in you winning or losing a game.

Resisting an enchantment means you're golden until their enchantment removal recharges. (you win)
Not resisting an enchantment means you're screwed until your enchantments recharge. (you lose)

Quote:

A meaningful change to Mysticism would be elminating the negligent and pointless health gain and adding a 1-2% holy damage with weapons per rank of Mysticism or adding a 1-2 holy damage to adjacent foes when an enchantment ends.

Something to make dervs more effective damage dealers or melee casters would be good, IMO.

Quote:

Dervs are fine. Mysticism is good. The only change I'd like to see for Dervs is that Mystic Twister be moved to Mysticism.

No they're not. No it's not. They need a helluva lot more than that.

Dervs are the only class that's used in neither high-end PvP or PvE. Other classes are underpowered as well, but all of those can find a place somewhere.

Nechrond · Feb 15, 2010, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason

Dervs are the only class that's used in neither high-end PvP or PvE. Other classes are underpowered as well, but all of those can find a place somewhere.

In 4-man teams, Dervs are often very efficient. You run into Dervs in RA and AB. AB happens to be my favourite PvP mode.

Coast · Feb 15, 2010, 11:36 AM // 11:36

avatar of dwayna in fow just said 'hi'

Turbo Ginsu · Feb 15, 2010, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

I can't believe I'm the first person to bring this up... how exactly do you "resist" an enchant stripping by 3%?

Now if you were playing Neverwinter Nights, you know, that older game, the one that uses a ruleset that actually works, then you would be quite familiar with 1. Spell resistance 2. Partial or full immunities to spell schools/damage types, etc.

Unfortunately, this is GW, where the ruleset doesn't go far past the fact that it isn't really much of a ruleset at all..

One point to note though, after all the running about and messing around I've done during this years CNY with my derv, I can honestly say that most of the avatar-based solo farm builds (With a bit of tickling) are absolutely great team builds, that can fill quite a few different roles, and tbh, I've been using mine in high end pve for a long time. My build, the "Lyssa's Axe/Swordsman" (No it isn't on PvX, nerrrrrrr!!) is an absolutely insane damage dealer/frontliner for FoW, etc. That being said, I can still see how there are a lot fo grey areas in what exactly they are supposed to do/be..

More of what I've been saying for some time. aNet don't understand their own game, or the "Classes" in it. Perhaps someone should give them an AD&D monstrous compendium and a Dungeon Masters handbook, they might actually learn how things should be done...

/signed, btw

MagmaRed · Feb 15, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Ritualist needs as big a change as Dervish then.

1) Monk can outheal a Rit due to Divine Favor.
2) Necro can out heal a Rit due to Soul Reaping allowing spell spamming.
3) Elem can out heal a Rit due to Ether Renewal.
4) Necro can out nuke a Rit due to Soul Reaping and spell spamming.
5) Ele can out nuke a Rit due to Energy Storage, head gear bonus, and runes plus a larger selection of spells.
6) Ranger can spam spirits better than a Rit due to Expertise.
7) Necro can spam spirits better than a Rit due to Soul Reaping.
8) Ele can be a better Weapons caster due to Energy Storage.
9) Necro can be a better Weapons caster due to Soul Reaping.

What else is a Rit good for? They spam spirits, but other classes can do it better. THey nuke, but other class can do it better. They heal, but other classes can do it better. They buff, but other class can do it better.

I can use a Dervish with a scythe and have no problems. I can play with other people using a scythe Dervish and have no problem. If you rely on PUGs, then that is your problem, not the Dervish. Yes, the Derv needs some help, but it is not useless, and it has some uses that I would pick a Dervish over any other class for. And since you'll ask me what those uses are....

Avatars. Even with the PvE skill in use, the Derv outclasses all other classes for Mysticism skills. PBAoE spells. Assassin can do decent with them due to the 4 pips of energy regen, but the Warrior can't come close to handling them. And the Assassin will lose out on the Mysticism energy return to make use of some of them effectively. There is more to using a scythe than swinging it at targets.

Desert Rose · Feb 15, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Oh, and just for the record, I tried suggesting that once, just to shut up people who were suggesting I try it (by showing them exactly how overpowered you would have to make PBAoE for it to be a viable PvE mechanic). As expected, the idea was a flop.

Your ideas are getting shot down because of at least one of the following reasons:
- Your suggestions are just bad.
- You only explain, if at all, very briefly what's wrong with the current situation with dervishes, what's the general goal you want to achieve, and how your specific changes would work toward that goal; anyone without a good knowledge about game mechanics, current balance situation and theoretical balancing cannot follow your thoughts.
- You present your ideas as they are the only way to fix the problem, you don't encourage others to bring in their input.
- You post way too many suggestions; instead of posting every idea that just popped into your head elaborate one idea and post it when it's finished.

And yes, I've a good idea how much work it would be to make the dervish viable as a PBAoE-caster. A few months ago there was a big discussion on a german board about how the dervish could be made viable in PvE without pushing another profession out of favor.

@MagmaRed: Your analogy with the ritualist is flawed because:
- More than 12 points in a weapon mastery bring a far smaller benefit than the points before; that's not true with spells from a attribute.
- No other profession can beat rts as a spirit spammer.
- Rts have the best party healing energy/skill slot/attribute point-wise.
- While other classes can beat a rt in healing and in damage dealing alone most other classes cannot come up with the same amount of healing and damage in one build.

Xsiriss · Feb 15, 2010, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Just a lame idea,needs something like 1% ench duration increase per rank (doesn't matter if it's OP,dervish are a second rate class).

shoyon456 · Feb 15, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Ritualist needs as big a change as Dervish then.

Incorrect. Weapon Spells cannot be stripped unlike Monk enchants, and Spawning makes them last longer so that they need to spam it less. Due to Boon of Creation, Rits can spam spirits more than Rangers AND give them a higher amount of health and higher level (more damage on hits and greater lifetime).

What you do not fundamentally understand is that Rit has its own unique niches, where as Derv is chucked in between two classes with Avatars being the only thing to speak of that makes it unique/worth taking. And obviously this isn't worth it since as mentioned, the dervish is not found in high-end PvE OR high-end PvP. Don't lie to yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

What else is a Rit good for? They spam spirits, but other classes can do it better. THey nuke, but other class can do it better. They heal, but other classes can do it better. They buff, but other class can do it better..

See above. Rits ARE better spirit spammers, and with they ARE dominant in weapon spell buffing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I can use a Dervish with a scythe and have no problems. I can play with other people using a scythe Dervish and have no problem. If you rely on PUGs, then that is your problem, not the Dervish. Yes, the Derv needs some help, but it is not useless, and it has some uses that I would pick a Dervish over any other class for. And since you'll ask me what those uses are....

Well that would be great except that you can't H/H FoW/UW/DoA/Urgoz/Deep unless you have multiple accounts. You CAN play a Derv and "have no problems." But you don't see any problem at all in the fact that 3 other classes can pick up a Derv's native weapon and use it better than them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Avatars. Even with the PvE skill in use, the Derv outclasses all other classes for Mysticism skills. PBAoE spells. Assassin can do decent with them due to the 4 pips of energy regen, but the Warrior can't come close to handling them. And the Assassin will lose out on the Mysticism energy return to make use of some of them effectively. There is more to using a scythe than swinging it at targets.

1. If avatars were so damn amazing, why does NO PvP guild/team use them in GvG/HA. Hell, winning teams rarely ever even use a Dervish period. Sorry, but take a look at how many of the PBAoE skills are ACTUALLY Mysticism. Most are Earth/Wind, and thus Sins, Rangers, Warriors can do the same thing except...better.

2. Damage>PBAoE. The goal is who can do the most damage effectively, and PBAoE skills have been an epic fail on Anet's part. As for Assassin's not having enough energy, ever heard of Critical Strikes?! It not only gives them Energy return but it makes their scythe attacks wtfpwn. As for saying the warrior can't use scythes, ever hear of Warrior's Endurance?! Combine Nearly unlimited Energy with AL pen from Strength and AGAIN, the Warrior is more effective at using a scythe than the Dervish.

3. Mysticism energy return does NOTHING to make Dervs more effective scythe users when compared to the extra AL pen, high-dmg Strength skills, and constant Erecharge of Warrior's Endurance. It also is pathetic when compared to Sin's higher DPS as a result of simply using their primary which also fuels CONSTANT Ereturn as long as their attacks hit.

The debate should not be on whether the Derv is statistically pointless when compared to other classes, it should be on what to do about it. If you're going to try to compare other classes to the Derv, at least know what you're talking about.

Default137 · Feb 15, 2010, 07:51 PM // 19:51

As someone with both a Rit and a Dervish, I have to say Dervish needs help far more then the Rit does.

Rit has its problems sure, I'm not going to say it doesn't, but it not only has a purpose, but it can also fill almost any role this game can throw at it without having to change much, as it has skills ranging from energy regen, to massive energy gain, to massive health and health regen, to spells that even turn melee damage into spikes, heck it even steals spells from the Ranger, and can boost its block to fairly high levels.

Rits can be effective healers, runners, and even spike damage dealers in HA/GvG, and can be very effective healers/aoers/spikers in PvE, when I'm on my Rit, I can find a group in seconds, and even after telling them I'm running a Spirits Strength build they don't care, and tell me its all good cause Rits can keep up.

A Dervish on the other hand has no viable role in PvP, or PvE, nothing they do can't be done ten times better then the other melee classes, a A/D will have better energy regen to spam skills faster, a R/D will have Expertise, a W/D has Warriors Endurance, and a few other nifty tricks, heck, even a Rit/D is better then a Dervish, because I can use Spirits Strength to actually contribute to something.

The Drunkard · Feb 15, 2010, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

So, let me get this straight. I have an idea that would singlehandedly make dervishes useful in the game without nerfing anyone else,

How so? I don't see how making dervishes immune to enchant stripping will suddenly make them FotM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

and you don't like it because it would mess up builds that rely upon the enemy stripping your enchantments for you?

No, I don't like it because you are forcing people to stay away from those builds. NO OTHER PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE DOES SO!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

First off, enchantment spam is generally not useful.

Go play against I ninefingers I in RA with his healer build...I assure you it can be very powerful.

How about you actually read the description of mysticism? Your idea would make the primary bonus harder to achieve. Why not just rework the Primary bonus instead of suggesting contradicting side bonuses?

Desert Rose · Feb 15, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

(...) But you don't see any problem at all in the fact that 3 other classes can pick up a Derv's native weapon and use it better than them?

That wouldn't be a major problem if the dervish had another advantage for compensation. For example, warriors, sins and rangers can use the spear better than the paragon himself, but you cannot replace a paragon with any of these professions because they cannot use shouts as efficient as the paragon.

jazilla · Feb 15, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

so you want your cake and to eat it too? noted.
/unsigned.

Default137 · Feb 15, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

so you want your cake and to eat it too? noted.
/unsigned.

I think its more along the lines of wanting a cake at all.

Every other class has a Primary that either buffs what their class is supposed to do, or buffs skills/elites that are fairly powerful in their own right, Necromancer for example has Soul Reaping, which makes it easier to summon the hefty cost minions faster, Monks can heal better, Warriors can hit harder, and many of their skills in that tree boost their health up, or make them more Warriory, heck, even Spawning Power gives more to the Rit then Mysticism does for a Dervish, because it allows Spirits to survive a bit longer, makes it so 5-20 second weapon skills last longer, and a few of the abilities in their are fairly powerful.

Dervishs have Mysticism, and Avatars, neither of which are very useful in PvP, in fact, nothing in Mysticism helps a Derv in PvP at all, meaning that if you want to PvP as a Derv, you are actually better off going Rit/D, R/D, W/D, or A/D. So how about PvE, well, the Avatars are useful, and are nice in specific situations, but can't compare to lets say, Spirits Strength Derv, or a A/D due to the massive amount of energy gain and crit damage, or a R/D due to expertise, or pretty much any combination of turning a Derv into a secondary.

MagmaRed · Feb 16, 2010, 12:22 AM // 00:22

/sigh

I give up. I was not saying Rit needs a change. I was saying that they show similar issues that the Derv does, and any class can say the same to some degree.

Ranger can use daggers better than Sin.
Mesmer can use long casting time Ele spells better than Ele.
Ele can bond+heal better than a Monk.
Assassin can tank better than a Warrior/Ele/etc.

My point was overlooked, and I'm done caring. Whine and moan about crap that doesn't matter. Learn how to play the game, and you may realize things aren't as bad as you think. Do I think the game is perfect? Hardly, but I don't cry over things that I can live with. I can live with the Dervish as it is.

shoyon456 · Feb 16, 2010, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I was saying that they show similar issues that the Derv does, and any class can say the same to some degree.

Ranger can use daggers better than Sin.
Mesmer can use long casting time Ele spells better than Ele.
Ele can bond+heal better than a Monk.
Assassin can tank better than a Warrior/Ele/etc.

Except that Sin's critical strikes makes them roughly par to the attack spammin allowed by Rangers' expertise.

Except that Ele's do much more damage compared to Mesmers and nowadays Ele's don't go for the longer casting time spells, and when they do, they use cons and Mindbender to make it matter little.

Ele's cannot bond, they don't have blessed signet* and their attributes are too low. You're way off here. They can ether renewal infuse, but other than that without Divine Favor Ele's don't have strong enough heals.

Assassins with Shadow Form are an abomination, and although their ability to tank isn't the primary reason I believe it needs to be nerfed, it contributes to the problem

The fact is that the Dervish is some combination of caster and melee that is subpar in both.

Mysticism, provides energy return. Emanagement is common to ALL casters, Fast Casting weaknesses aside. Even if they get E return, it doesn't make them able casters because they fall short of other caster's attributes and/or have no casting advantage like Fast Casting provides. Not to mention hardly any Dervish skills were meant to be used in a caster manner.

Mysticism provides no melee bonus, whereas Strength gives armor penetration and attacks such as Power Strike, Critical Strikes provides energy return AND critical hits with weapons, and Expertise cuts down on the base Ecost of attacks to allow attack spam whereas a Derv will have to wait for enchantments to cycle unless he's going to throw away Mysticism and go Zealous Vow. The problem is that the most effective Dervs...aren't running Mysticism because compared overall, it offers nothing to make them more effective at their role than other classes going */D and picking up a scythe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I can live with the Dervish as it is.

Not surprising considering your profession is listed as Ranger. But for those of us who actually play with the Dervish primarily, the problems are quite apparent.

tealspikes · Feb 16, 2010, 02:52 AM // 02:52

What specifically is the role of the dervish?

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 16, 2010, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by tealspikes

What specifically is the role of the dervish?

It was originally meant to be an AoE capable damage dealer that juggles enchantments and uses enchantments to fortify themselves.

Early builds included using Pious Assault to cancel offensive enchantments that function like Grenth's Fingers while recharging Pious instantly. It was effective, fun, and powerful, but Anet deemed it too powerful and nerfed both Pious Assault and the enchantments themselves. They then ran into the problem of Pious Assault too viable a output of Deep Wound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

/sigh

I give up. I was not saying Rit needs a change. I was saying that they show similar issues that the Derv does, and any class can say the same to some degree.

Ranger can use daggers better than Sin.
Mesmer can use long casting time Ele spells better than Ele.
Ele can bond+heal better than a Monk.
Assassin can tank better than a Warrior/Ele/etc.

My point was overlooked, and I'm done caring. Whine and moan about crap that doesn't matter. Learn how to play the game, and you may realize things aren't as bad as you think. Do I think the game is perfect? Hardly, but I don't cry over things that I can live with. I can live with the Dervish as it is.

Rangers use daggers slightly worse/ on par with a sin
Mindbender
I'll give you that
and that

While Rits are an ok example, Dervishes right now can be compared to pre-buff Rits. The Rit changes were awesome, and Anet did an awesome job of it, but right now, Dervishes are pretty much useless. The only thing they do well is using Orders. Other then that, Sins and Warriors are better with a scythe in the same respect that Necros were better then Rits in using their weapon spells.

On the topic at hand, I don't like the idea. Enchantment Stripping resistance is a new mechanic, probably entales re-coding skills that self-remove enchantments, and it's overall not a big enough benefit to bother with...

...especially considering one of the main things that make dervishes appealing is the fact that many times enchantment stripping has a POSITIVE effect for the dervish.

No, dervishes need some other kind of benefit, not this.

Reverting Pious Assault and enchantment juggling is the only real start for dervishes IMO. It makes them unique, and all Anet did be nerfing it to hell was dumb down the entire class itself. I don't know how it was for PvP, but a PvP split to bring back enchantments for dervs would be awesome.

I think it can be universally agreed upon that the energy gain aspect of Mysticism is good. I don't think dervishes particularly need a buff in damage either. The problem isn't that Dervishes are underpowered in damage, it's that Assassins and Warriors are too overpowered in the damage they do with scythes.

Lanier · Feb 16, 2010, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Another nice detail is that this shouldn't make dervish monsters in PvE significantly more difficult, since it's generally more efficient to simply kill a monster than to strip it's enchantments. And even if it did, it's not like PvE is that hard to begin with if you know what you're doing.

Wait a second... isnt PvE easy enough already? Shouldnt we be buffing PvE rather than making it easier?

Quote:

Ritualist needs as big a change as Dervish then.

No. Ritualists and Spawning Power are already finely balanced.

Quote:

1) Monk can outheal a Rit due to Divine Favor.
2) Necro can out heal a Rit due to Soul Reaping allowing spell spamming.
3) Elem can out heal a Rit due to Ether Renewal.
4) Necro can out nuke a Rit due to Soul Reaping and spell spamming.
5) Ele can out nuke a Rit due to Energy Storage, head gear bonus, and runes plus a larger selection of spells.
6) Ranger can spam spirits better than a Rit due to Expertise.
7) Necro can spam spirits better than a Rit due to Soul Reaping.
8) Ele can be a better Weapons caster due to Energy Storage.
9) Necro can be a better Weapons caster due to Soul Reaping.

1. Ritualists do not have as much of a variety of heals as monks do but the heals rits do have are very powerful. You dont need variety when you have enough powerful heals anyway.
2. You dont spam heals... of course that is going to run you out of energy. Rits can manage their energy just fine wih smart usage of their heals and possibly either Gole or Energetic was lee sa.
3. This is true, but eles can outheal monks as well. ER is overpowered and needs nerfing.
4 & 5. Rits are meant to nuke? Thats new. Unless you consider splinter as a "nuking" skill, I dont really see how rits are even intended to be nukers.
6. lol... no. Rits can manage their energy just fine with either boon of creation or spirit siphon. Expertise is completely unnecessary.
7. Once again, not even a stupid rit should EVER have trouble managing their energy in a spirit spam build.
8 & 9. Eles and Necros can use GDW better but every other good weapon spell is better used on a rit as they are not energy intensive and can easily be spammed with minimum energy management. Plus, rits get rune bonuses for more damage on splinter, nightmare, or w/e you are using.

Im sorry but your arguements about rits are stupid. They are probably one of the most balanced classes in the game and there is no reason for anet to be focusing on that class when they have underpowered (dervish) and overpowered (necro) primaries to be focusing on.

Desert Rose · Feb 16, 2010, 11:00 AM // 11:00

@MagmaRed: Again, you haven't understand the problem, and why your old and your new examples are mostly beside the point. There's nothing wrong if another profession can use one aspect of a profession better than the original profession. There's also nothing wrong if every single aspect of a profession can be used better by other professions.
It becomes a problem though if every combintion of aspects a single profession can use can be better used by another single character of another profession.